Behind The Scenes Of Running A Business As An Artist - chat with Emily Kay

Join us on a captivating journey as we delve into the world of "running a business as an artist" with our guest, Emily Kay. 

In this episode, Emily opens up about her unique perspective as an "artist business owner," sharing her invaluable insights on balancing the realms of art and business.

 Discover the secrets behind her flourishing tattoo artistry and gain a deeper understanding of the misconceptions she had to deal with.

Get ready to uncover the hidden truths and ugly sides of being a tattoo artist, as Emily fearlessly reveals the challenges she has faced on her entrepreneurial path. Gain inspiration from her stories of triumph and learn how she has harnessed the power of creativity to find her version of freedom within her business. 

If you're an artist seeking to navigate the intricate dance between art and commerce, this episode is a must-listen. Tune in for a raw and eye-opening conversation about the profound intersection of "art and business" in Emily Kay's remarkable journey.
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To connect with Emily, go to:

Vertigotattoopdx.com

@emilykaytattoo on Instagram and TikTok

Transcript

Ian Manheimer  0:00  
Hello, and welcome to habits of influence a podcast for entrepreneurs, by entrepreneurs, where we discuss the good, the bad, and the ugly side of being an entrepreneur, and we help you build a movement where others wish to follow. Today we have Emily Kay joining us who is an amazing phenomenal tattoo artists who have been following for years and years and years. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast only. Thank you so much for being here.

Emily Kay  0:22  
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

Ian Manheimer  0:25  
Oh, my pleasure. So just to get started, if you don't mind sharing a little bit about you, what got you into tattooing, maybe some of the things that you enjoy most about it?

Emily Kay  0:34  
Okay, um, so I've been tattooing since 2011. I got into it after going to college, I was in college for art. And I also did entrepreneurship in business. And I was really not I mean, I was in my 20s. So very not motivated. I, if I could go back, I probably wouldn't do college again. But I got kind of bored with it. So once I started getting tattooed myself, I started researching what it would take to become a tattoo artist, because obviously, I thought that it was really cool. And it was a way to be able to do art everyday, which I was definitely into. So I researched to get licenced in Oregon is actually really difficult in Oregon, to become a tattooer. Now they have tattoo schools, back then they didn't I mean, they might have had like one or two of these, but you really have to get licenced through a an approved supervisor that the state the health licencing agency approves. So I did that. And after that I went to vertigo at two, which I'm still at now. And I did about a year apprenticeship, I would say where I tattooed a lot of my friends and I built up clientele doing walkins. And yeah, I've been doing it ever since. I think there's a lot to be said about being your own boss. Like I think about going and working a regular job now. And I don't think I could do it. Even if I was paid more money. Even if I had benefits which I don't now like being a tattoo artist, you have to pay for your health insurance, dental, all that stuff like it's it's a pain. But I don't think I could go back and work for somebody else now. Because the ability to make your own schedule. Be you know, be in charge of your own clientele being being able to fire people being able to tell people to eff off or like to get away from me, oh my gosh, it's a luxury definitely. And I don't I don't think I can ever go back to you know, I worked retail, like your college and right after high school and stuff. And then of course go for that like fast food. So I don't think I could go back because of that. That's the that's the one thing I love the most about this job.

Ian Manheimer  3:00  
It's funny, you mentioned the being the boss. And even if there was more money, because I think sometimes for us as entrepreneurs, it's not always about the money. And I always see people, oh, you know, you don't want to work 40 hours for somebody else, but you'll work 80 hours for yourself to make the same or less money. And it is that autonomy that if I don't want to show up to the I don't have to or if you want to fire a client, you can when you're working for somebody else, there is a code that you have to follow you have to follow their rules, you have to follow their expectations, you have to do their way and when you're your own boss, and especially in your in your industry. You know, it's it's very liberating, right? You can choose who you work with, you can choose who not to work with. And you for what I know, I'm you're a pretty sought after. I mean, you have your months out booking if I if I want to book with you now. It's going to be a few months before I get into see you. Usually it's about three months or so. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, that's, it's a it's a great problem to have, right? It's, you have stuff and then and I'm sure it didn't come easy. Like you said, when you first started out. You didn't just have people flocking through your doors?

Emily Kay  4:00  
No, not at all. No, I definitely paid my dues with $50 tattoos. I did that for a long time. I did a lot of special. I mean, I did free tattoos for a long time. And I'm really fortunate to have a lot of friends who when I was first starting out, they just did not care. They were just like, cat, do whatever you want. And you know, of course I didn't charge them for it. And then years later, I had to be like, you know, let me cover that up because that's not bad. So let's cover that up. I think I've covered the majority of it up now, which is great, but I don't want my name associated with that one. Yeah, things that are don't tell people that I did that one if you don't flatten it up, you know.

Ian Manheimer  4:42  
So, that's so funny, and it's I would assume I could be wrong, that you've probably developed some great relationships along the way. Oh, yeah, definitely. And those people that you were doing those $50 tattoos for or the people who you were doing freebie tattoos for I'm sure you've talked to them more than once.

Emily Kay  4:59  
Yes. Definitely there's some that I have never seen again. Definitely. But yeah, I mean, I've met. I mean, even today like today I'm tattooing my client Teresa who has been coming to me, man since I would say probably 2013. And she's running out of space. Like I see her at least once a month. And she, I mean, she's got her neck left, I think, but everything else is pretty much done. We're actually going into old stuff today to kind of add little tiny things here and there. So

Ian Manheimer  5:32  
well, you just brought up a couple, couple things that popped in my mind when you were talking. And when you know, just the tattoo experience in general, as an artist, tattooing is so different. If I have a pen and paper and I have a hard surface, it's I get draw or whatever. But once you start dealing with skin and people's bodies, and you have muscle, you've got fat, you've got you have to it's a whole different modality. Yes, and and when you're tattooing, you can't erase a mistake. You can't say, oh, here, let me let me erase this. Yeah. So how do you handle some of those things?

Emily Kay  6:05  
You know, honestly, when people say that, it's, it's hard to describe because it takes years to fully understand all of these things. You're not only like, dealing with the art aspect, you're dealing with dermatology, cross contamination, Age of skin, the quality of the skin, if someone's a smoker versus not. I mean, there's so many things, it's, there's a lot to it. But surprisingly, it's really hard to mess up a tattoo beyond repair. If you know what you're doing. And if you like if you know the basics, like if you know, machine settings and basic design, it's really hard to mess something up beyond repair. I mean, unless you misspell something which I posted the other day, like I misspell stuff all of the time. I'm not I'm an artist, I'm not a an English major. So I learned the hard way with that I've definitely miss misspelt things. And I've learned to put that back on the client to be like, You need to make sure that this is right, because I don't know, or make sure that this kid's birthday this right because sometimes dads or other parents will come in and get a birthday wrong. But you know, it's not it's not unfixable. It's if you're if you build that confidence, and you have experience with all those different types of things, it's pretty easy to fix stuff.

Ian Manheimer  7:29  
That's awesome. And one of the things I always love, and this is just because people have this perception of a tattoo artist, right? Like, oh, you're making all this money and you're just doing it. But people don't there's a whole perceived value, it's people don't realise is that RPF is going to be out with you literally forever. It's your time. It's, it's not like you're just going to a third grader and st draw me a picture. You're you're going back and forth with consultations you're going you have to create something that's going to live on this person for years to come. And like you said, there's so many different things with the settings and and I think that's the big point that many people don't think of, especially young people, they just say, oh, I want to get a tattoo and they'll go I think what's what's the director like a scratch or something goes out in the garage? Does their own does their own stuff. They're not licenced they're don't they don't have their insurance they haven't studied they just they bought a tattoo gun or your old school poker with Indian ink, you know, and, and that kind of thing. And there's so much more to tattooing than people actually think about.

Emily Kay  8:26  
Oh yeah, there's a lot and it really blows my mind. I really appreciate the experience of working in a walk in shop where I got to really deal with all sorts of clients you know, I've dealt with those young kids who come in just want a quick tattoo don't want to spend any money, all the way up to people who are willing to you know, spend 1000s on a back piece or sleep or something. But there's a large percentage of people that it blows my mind that like are willing to spend 30 to $90,000 on a car that is depreciating in value that is temporary. But you know, I don't want to say they kind of complain about the like they're not interested in investing in their own body or you know, they go something not monetary like they they go work out, they work on their body their physique, they're really into looking good but they go to somebody out of their garage to get a tattoo because they don't want to wait or pay the pay the price of a licenced experienced professional. It's an interesting paradigm there.

Ian Manheimer  9:41  
It really is. And it also is all that perceived value stuff and like I said I've been following you for years so I love your work I'm I am dying to get on your books one of these days we need to just after this after this interview, we need to just plan something where I can come in and see you and do it. And you know going off of that you know because we on this one Because we really like to talk about the good, the bad and the ugly, I think there's so many misperceptions about the tattoo industry. You know, and I'm sure, um, I would assume you got hit pretty hard during 2020, just like we did in our business with, you know, not being able to perform or not being able to welcome clients because of standards, whatever. What would you say? Are some of the like myths or some of the stuff you really can't stand hearing about your industry? Or what is the the bad and the ugly part?

Emily Kay  10:28  
So let me think about this, I think it's hard for me to step outside of the industry and think about, like, the misconceptions that like other people see, but I think I kind of, I always think about, like, people who think like tattooers are drug addicts, or, you know, biker gang, or some other type of prison or, you know, things of that nature. And it has shifted so much in America specifically over the past half, you know, from the beginning, that now it's really it's, it's its own art form of itself. And it's actually kind of a high class art form, is not low class and dirty and gritty. I mean, there definitely is that portion of it. But there is definitely still a stigma, especially with the older generation, if they see me heavily tattooed or know that I'm a tattoo artist, you can tell that they have kind of this conception of Oh, dirty, gritty, you know, when I'm, I'm a mom, I am. I pride myself on being professional and clean and compassionate and connecting with other people. And it's kind of the opposite of what I think the most of the older generation, I don't think like, I think nowadays, it's like, you go to Fred Meyer, and most people that work there are tattooed, you know, so it's a more accepted with people who are in the working class nowadays.

Ian Manheimer  12:03  
It's funny, you brought that up, because it made me think of when, way back when I first moved to Washington. So when I, when I left Florida, I was working in a casino. It was a tribal casino, and I'm having native background, you know, I got long hair, right? It's, it's, it's part of who I am. You know, I do have some, some ink work. You know, it's, there's stuff that I've got. And when I first moved out here, I moved to Washington in 2002. So Oh, three, I was kind of looking for work before I started my business. And I started the business. But it was like, while while I was building I was trying to find other revenue, like, like guaranteed income, so to say, and I went to so many different places. I like Coca Cola wouldn't hire me because I had long hair, they want me to cut my hair for $10 an hour. A casino, I went to a local casino, it wasn't a tribal casino. And for a manager, they only want to pay me $500 a week. And I had to cut my hair. And I'm like, No, this is my culture. This is who I am. They're like, well, we're not going to hire you and like peace out because I was making cripple more than tripled that just in tips where I came from. Oh, no. So I ended up taking a job at Blockbuster. Um, back when there were blockbusters? Yeah, I took a job for 750 an hour, just to just to get a job. So I had some revenue coming in and, and, you know, I went into teaching and all this other stuff, but it was 20 years ago, a lot different. Like, you could not find a job if you had ink, or if you had long hair or as a guy, you know, and, and it's great to see that perception change. And I love there's an image I wish I would have pulled it up before or done a screen share. I love it from a tattoo perspective. Because it was like two lions and one was like $100 tattoo and showed like, I like to stick like a little drawn like cartoon lie. And then like, you know, this dollar amount of tattooed and had like this growly face, and it's really well detailed. And it's true. You get what you pay for, especially in your industry.

Emily Kay  13:55  
To a certain extent. Yeah, definitely. Good. Tattoos aren't cheap and cheap. Tattoos aren't good.

Ian Manheimer  14:02  
What would you say? I mean, if there are like from your industry, what would you say are some of the struggles or some of the things you've had to overcome? Or what what is the ugly side of the tattoo industry? Aside from the perception of the grid or the you know, like you said, low class thing? What are some other things you've had to overcome or struggles or whatever misconceptions? What was the ugly, tell me the ugly?

Emily Kay  14:24  
Okay. Well, there's, I mean, there's a lot. But, you know, it's a very male dominated industry. There's two things that I'll say that the first thing is working with other artists, it's very difficult to I feel like artists and people who are their own boss are very strong personalities. So working with in a shop, you know, when we had walk ins and we had other artists, that was difficult because I thought My husband and I were sober. We don't. I mean, we drink once in a while, like once in a great while like, but we don't smoke weed, we don't do drugs, we don't go out and party. That is just not how we are. And in a lot of these shop, bro atmospheres, that's kind of the culture. And when we have artists in our shop who, you know, like in Oregon here in Washington, I think it's legal, like this stuff is legal. So it's very for me, it was very difficult to be working alongside people who would have a walking client have a new client in their chair and take a break, go outside and smoke weed that bothers the crap out of me and the unprofessionalism of that. And a lot of clients wouldn't care, they would not care, and that's fine. But for me, oh my gosh, it would just drive me insane to be working around these people who would have no regard for professionalism, or the fact that you are doing a permanent procedure on someone, and the fact that you are going and getting into state, I don't give a crap if it's illegal, or if it's legal, or if it's your medication, I don't care, like you can take an hour out of your day to be sober and straight, drink some coffee, whatever you have to do, and give somebody a quality piece of art that they're going to have on their body for the rest of their life. That's number one. And just dealing with the drama, and all that kind of stuff, you know, being in the shop. That's why we have no artists right now. Our last artists, she's amazing. I love her. Her name is Lisa, she's now at our own studio in Washington, she was the best case scenario she was she was great, like very like minded. But it was very, very hard to find. And eventually those people are going to open up their own place, you know, so we've learned that it is best for my husband and I to just be us ourselves. And we've been very, very happy doing that. Anyway, the second thing that, like, for me, is I'm really passionate about as well is being a tattooer. And like working, I mean, I had up until a Lisa, I had only worked with men. And it there's this thing, where if you're a female, and you are busy or successful in a shop, for me at least and I mean, other women tattooers who I've communicated with, it's like, oh, you're only busy because you're at shit. You're only busy because you know, they want to sleep with you or you have tips so you're busier. And that was so offensive. Because I I worked harder than these guys did. I am not out. I'm not smoking weed. I'm not out Park, like I'm literally going home and drawing and trying to better my craft, but they're telling me that I'm only busy because I'm a female, like that is so frustrating in that case scenario, but at the same time, I'm kind of thankful because it really pushed me even harder. It's like, you know, just give them the middle finger and work even harder and take that money to be like, well, there's a reason why people don't want to get tattooed by you.

Ian Manheimer  18:25  
Yeah. And I'm really glad you brought that up. And not because of the podcast was in general, as a business mindset. There are people who hustle and people who make excuses. And it doesn't matter if you're male or female doesn't matter where you're coming from doesn't matter your upbringing. It matters your internal grid that I'm going to be successful and you said something really resonated with me because that's how I am. You told me I can't do something. It's getting done better than anybody else will ever do it because I have now pissed off that you think I can't? Yeah, so you think I can't do something? I'm gonna do it better than anybody else because that's who I am.

Emily Kay  19:01  
Well, for and for me, like, it also made me be like, I don't know how to describe this. This is a weird this is a weird thing in the way that I run my business but like, you know, when, when my peers and the people that I looked up to and the people that I worked with started saying that kind of stuff. I was also like, Yeah, I'm gonna work harder. And and I'm gonna use my appearance and my sexuality to my benefit. Like if you think that that's the only reason that I am getting business. Hell no, it's it's a real big like, I just fu that. I want to say them basically. It's like, why should I? Like what do you want me to do? Do you want me to not wear makeup? Do you not want me to completely change the person that I am? Do you want me to cover up my body? Because you're insecure that that's making me money? And for me, it was like, No, I'm not going to be myself. I love doing me cuz I love doing my hair. I'm a girl. I'm a woman. I am gonna own that even harder now because you are telling me that I should be ashamed of it. You know what I mean?

Ian Manheimer  20:11  
Yeah. And I said, I've seen your work. I have followed your work for years. And I absolutely love your work. I think I've told you from day one, when I first met you, I'm like, I love this piece or I love this work. And whenever you post something, whether it's I don't know if it's, I used to I used to be on Facebook, if you do more Instagram now my

Emily Kay  20:28  
breakfast. Yeah, I, um, I have a lot of hang ups with Facebook now. But

Ian Manheimer  20:35  
I love to hang out with them. When I my Facebook account got hacked and shut down and I lost my business pages. So I'm kind of mad at Facebook

Emily Kay  20:41  
swell from now too, so I know.

Ian Manheimer  20:45  
Well, that's what happened was my Facebook business account got shut down. My Instagram got shut down. My WhatsApp got shut down. I'm like, Are you freaking kidding me. And that was September. So I mean, I'm Little over it now. But I was livid. I was. At that point in time, my mom, the week that that happened was my mom had a triple bypass surgery. And that was how we communicate through Facebook Messenger. I couldn't I didn't have an account. I was like, I create a new account because she thought was spamming her. She's always a fake account. So it was, it was crazy. So yeah, I feel you on the Facebook thing. But no, your art is amazing. You are an amazing person. I've watched you I think I remember when you got married, I remember you're having your baby. And I was like it was like, it's been really fun watching you grow as an artist and as a person and, and just seeing your life develop. I don't know when we connected, but it's been quite a quite a while. So so it's been great. And I love everything that you're doing what you're putting out there. And I'm glad you shared shared that because I think I think people need to hear we live in such a society where it's like this whole women's live in this and that, but we don't realise there's still a lot of that sexism stuff that's happening. And if you're a woman, you're not as good, or I know, the co host of this podcast and Magdalena. You know. She's she's experienced some of that in the coaching world. If you're not a male you don't you're not as valuable even though she is brilliant and has all this stuff. And it's like, we're tired of the bullshit excuse my language, it's we're tired of that mentality of, you know, oh, what gender you are determines your worth. And that's garbage. It really is.

Emily Kay  22:16  
Definitely.

Ian Manheimer  22:17  
So I'm glad. I'm glad that you brought that up. So on that, you know, if you were to give advice, and not necessarily your industry specific as a tattoo artist, but you can you can tap in on that. What would you say to somebody who's just starting their business? Or maybe a new female entrepreneur? What kind of advice would you give them?

Emily Kay  22:35  
I would say, for me, it's really easy to kind of be really worried about what other people are thinking of me, especially in this day and age, like when the majority of stuff is online. Even if you're doing like a service where you're one on one with people, you're going to be promoting online, you're going to be showcasing your work online, or, you know, if you're opening your own restaurant, a lot of it's based on reviews and things like that. So it's very easy to fall into that trap of believing what other people say about I just watched this man, I wish I remember his name. I watched TED talks a lot. And I watched one yesterday. And he said, We will never rise above the opinion that we have about ourselves. And it's like for me when I hear other people either talk crap about me or be like, Oh, no, you shouldn't be doing that. Or oh, God, it's so cringe when people like post selfies or you know, like toot their own horn or whatever on the on the internet. I internalise that a little bit and I get like, kind of like, man, no, I'm doing I'm doing too much. I'm being too loud. I'm being too self absorbed. But like, you know, when I heard that yesterday, it's like, you really have to have the highest opinion of yourself. You I mean, obviously, it's good to be well balanced and objective. But you should really be your biggest cheerleader because you're the person who's running your business. And if you're gonna let all of that negativity and other people's perspective creep in. It's it's only inhibiting you it's only hurting you. It's not hurting them. It's not making them happier. It's not making them it doesn't matter about them. It really just is you building your own business and you have to start your your opinion of yourself way high so that you can grow and have have sustained energy to keep going because if you're an entrepreneur, you're gonna feel like crap a lot of the time. And you don't think you're your own enemy, or you have to love yourself really you have to be the type of person that you want to see more of the show up for you every day?

Ian Manheimer  25:03  
Yeah, it's funny, when you were talking made me think of a couple things, which was not beating ourselves up, it's really easy to do that the world is gonna knock us down, we're gonna get hit from, like you said people's perceptions, people's opinions. We don't need to add to that. No. And I always like to refer to it as tuning out the noise. There's a lot of noise, and being very selective of what we hear what we choose to, to take part of. And I always tell people to soar so high that you can hear the opinions of other people. Yeah, fly up there be your person, put yourself up, and not put up put yourself on a pedestal where you think you're better than anybody. But really, for when I've shared this with other people, as well, I've shared on this podcast probably a few times as well. Find people that you value their opinion and listen to them. Yeah, find people who are where you want to be. And those that people you listen to, everyone's gonna have a story, everyone's gonna have something negative to say, why you can't do it, why you're not good enough? Why it's not the right thing. Why it's, but unless they're doing it, they have no opinion. I'm not going to take success advice from from or financial advice from somebody who doesn't know how to manage money? Totally. Yeah, you know, I'm not gonna take business advice from somebody who's never run a business. And we I think we have to be very selective about who we're listening to, and what we're taking. And I'm a huge I love TED talks, as well. And when we stop the recording, maybe we could brainstorm and chat a little bit about some of those. But I'm really glad you brought that up. And one thing that I want to go back to that didn't think of I thought of it when we were talking in that space that having other tattooers in your shop. I want to go back to that for a second. Because you mentioned like them going out and smoking weed or something? Where does that fall on you as far as a liability as as a shop owner? If somebody goes and smokes weed or gets drinks or something on their break, even though it's legal? Does that affect you as a business owner? Under your liability?

Emily Kay  26:59  
Oh, and I'm sure it would, I hope I never have to find out. You know, I, for me, if I was a client in the chair? I don't know, I'd be a total Karen about that, you know, but yeah, thankfully, we've never been in that case scenario, you know. And that's I mean, you've burnt bridges with a lot of tattooers being like, you can't, you can't do drugs when you're here. And that's just not gonna happen. And most of them don't like that. So they leave. But that's for the best, you know,

Ian Manheimer  27:31  
so as somebody if somebody was listening to this podcast right now, and that tongue, I'm going totally off the mark about business. But if I was looking for a tattoo shop, what are things that I should look for? What would it be appropriate to ask the question of, you know, hey, are the artists here drug and alcohol free? Like, what would I look for?

Emily Kay  27:52  
I think that's a that's definitely something you should ask. And you should find as close like, like minded people, you know, if you do smoke weed, and you'd like to smoke weed, and you think that that, you know, if it's just part of who you are, I, you know, I'm talking a lot of crap about people that smoke weed, but like, I have friends that do this, I have people that I respect, and that I look up to who do do this. And that's totally fine. Like, that's their life. It's just not how I want to run my business. But if you're one of those people that do like to run business like that, and that's what you want to do. find like minded people, find a shop that's like minded, you're going to be able to stay there longer, you're going to have way less drama, you're going to be happier in the long run, if you surround yourself with people who are like minded, if you're sober, ask them if they're sober, if you know what their what their policy is on that kind of stuff and their outlook. And, you know, do do your best to find people who resonate with you. Stay away from

Ian Manheimer  28:53  
shady shit. Yes. Doesn't matter what industry you're in, stay away from from Shady, right.

Ian Manheimer  28:59  
Awesome. Now, so I know you're, you're you know, do you ever travel at all or no, just everything's local, right?

Emily Kay  29:07  
I used to travel my husband and I, we, we've done the Philly convention we did one year. I hate Philly. I'm never going back there. It was It was February. So I'll say that. With that in mind. It was cold. And the place the place where the convention was they made a stand. All the artists had to stand up outside for like hours with all of our stuff. It was horrible. So Philly, I'm done with Philly. You. That's that's like the furthest away that I've travelled for a convention. I've done local conventions. I've done the Evergreen show, which is really nice. It's in the Portland expos quite a bit, but I you know, it's so funny. I don't know. I feel like tattooers are gonna see this and be like, Wow, she's Oregon. If I am okay, that's just me.

chat continues...